Are all main Touhou games pretty much the same?

[theBATHEAD]

Okay, all the main series Touhou games (excluding the Phantasmagoria games (do you guys think TH15 will be one BTW?) and decimal numbered games) seem to follow pretty much the same, pretty strict formula: four selectable difficulty levels, six (or five in SoEW) stages of danmaku, each with a middle boss and a boss, each of which change their patterns as they lose life bars, with a sudden difficulty spike at stage and boss 4, then an extra stage (or two in PCB) with only one possible difficulty that's harder than even Lunatic (the highest difficulty) on the main story, with the main character dying in one hit and unable to gain power ups other than bombs and extra lives. Here are my suggestions for adding variety (heavily inspired by Konami games):

Gameplay:
>More or fewer than six stages
>Horizontal or 8-directional stages alternating with vertical ones
#Possibly even stages with completely different gameplay styles
>Stages with multiple paths
#Either merging later in the stage or leading to different end bosses (and possibly different stages (see below))
>Split (and/or merging) paths
#Based on choice, difficulty level, having continued or not, chosen character, or path taken in stage
#Possibly different starting stages or ending stages/endings
#maybe with different numbers of stages depending on the path taken
#Possibly fighting the same character (maybe even with the same theme song) on either path
>More weapons gathered by collecting power ups, such as speed up, missile, double shot (e.g. spread shot, tail gun), laser (or ripple shot), options, or shields
>Expendable power shots collectible in stages
>Stages entirely composed of 4-7 boss battles each with 2-4 spell cards
>Two-player mode

Dialogue:
>Fighting characters from early in the game again much later
>Use of quick, witty lines (e.g. "You spineless jellyfish!", "'Wait,' she says... Do I look like a waiter?", "You think you can beat me with that? Loser.")
>Reimu not being a selectable player character and appearing later on as an antagonist
>Characters who are being brainwashed by the antagonist, do not know their real name and attack the player

Music:
>Reusing tunes at different points or using the same tune on different paths (see above)
>Boss themes that ACTUALLY SOUND LIKE BOSS THEMES
>Changing the stage music for the middle boss battle, or afterwards
>Having the boss theme start up before the pre-boss cutscene
>Having the stage theme continue for a boss's first few spell cards
>Having the final or extra boss have two or more themes (whether for different characters that are part of the same fight or for different spell cards of the same character)
>Having different music play for the same sections if different characters are playing

Note: some of these options have appeared in earlier Touhou games, although not to the extent I suggest or since Imperishable Night. They have also appeared in fan games (especially CtC). However, I suggest them to fan game makers (or to relay to ZUN if he accepts fan suggestions).

[Cucoo5]

I haven't played all of the Touhou's but I know off the top of my head that...actually...some of them do have what you just listed.

Some of the PC-98 games actually aren't shooters per se. I haven't played them but I read that one of them has it where Reimu smacks a yin yang orb around like pinball to deal damage to enemies.
I think TH 9 has more than 6 stages...from what I've seen so far (I have yet to beat it.) also TH 9 does have different beginnings...I think...off the top of my head again... and TH 9 does have a 2 player versus mode.
TH 8 has some of the other weapon concepts to a degree.
Dialogue, sometimes, is witty.
TH 8 I think has Reimu in stage 3/4 if you play as marisa and alice? not certain off the top of my head.
Music...
..........................Flandre Scarlet. Nuff said.
and the stage theme does sometimes overlap with the first spell card of a boss, TH 8 has this.

*reads your final note*
.......Ok so your basically looking for a revival of some concepts?
....well....
It's all been done to an extent.
Just keep looking, you'll find it eventually.
Heck some of the things your proposing sounds like Metroid and I know there is somewhere out there a Touhou Metroid...
so....
ya....
it's been done mate.
Everything has been done.
If ya wanted all of those things in one game then that would make sense
that I understand cause then it's like me wishing that they'd take certain elements from every Zelda game and implement them into one.

[Remilia Scarlet]

Okay, all the main series Touhou games (excluding the Phantasmagoria games (do you guys think TH15 will be one BTW?) and decimal numbered games) seem to follow pretty much the same, pretty strict formula: four selectable difficulty levels, six (or five in SoEW) stages of danmaku, each with a middle boss and a boss, each of which change their patterns as they lose life bars, with a sudden difficulty spike at stage and boss 4, then an extra stage (or two in PCB) with only one possible difficulty that's harder than even Lunatic (the highest difficulty) on the main story, with the main character dying in one hit and unable to gain power ups other than bombs and extra lives. Here are my suggestions for adding variety (heavily inspired by Konami games):

Gameplay:
>More or fewer than six stages Already done. Touhou 1, 9, 7.5, 9.5, 10.5, 12.3, 12.6
>Horizontal or 8-directional stages alternating with vertical ones If mario suddenly included FPS mechanics or zelda was suddenly about tower defense protecting ganandorf, it wouldn't really be Mario or Zelda, would it? Same with touhou.
#Possibly even stages with completely different gameplay styles Already done if you include Th1
>Stages with multiple paths Already done. Imperishable Night stage 6
#Either merging later in the stage or leading to different end bosses (and possibly different stages (see below))
>Split (and/or merging) paths Already done. Most touhou games...
#Based on choice, difficulty level, having continued or not, chosen character, or path taken in stage Already done. See above.
#Possibly different starting stages or ending stages/endings Already done. Every touhou game ever.
#maybe with different numbers of stages depending on the path taken Already done.
#Possibly fighting the same character (maybe even with the same theme song) on either path Already done.
>More weapons gathered by collecting power ups, such as speed up, missile, double shot (e.g. spread shot, tail gun), laser (or ripple shot), options, or shields Already done. This is actually like... main game mechanic of every touhou game... lol...
>Expendable power shots collectible in stages Already done. Bombs.
>Stages entirely composed of 4-7 boss battles each with 2-4 spell cards Already done. Boss rushes.
>Two-player mode Already done. Fighting games, PoFV, PoDD

Dialogue:
>Fighting characters from early in the game again much later Already done. Multiple games.
>Use of quick, witty lines (e.g. "You spineless jellyfish!", "'Wait,' she says... Do I look like a waiter?", "You think you can beat me with that? Loser.") Already done. Read: Every winning line from 12.3 and a lot of lines after capturing spellcards
>Reimu not being a selectable player character and appearing later on as an antagonist
>Characters who are being brainwashed by the antagonist, do not know their real name and attack the player Already done sort of. Read: Weapons and stuff from Th14.

Music:
>Reusing tunes at different points or using the same tune on different paths (see above)
>Boss themes that ACTUALLY SOUND LIKE BOSS THEMES Already done. They already sound like boss themes.
>Changing the stage music for the middle boss battle, or afterwards Already done. Read: Every Extra Stage ever.
>Having the boss theme start up before the pre-boss cutscene
>Having the stage theme continue for a boss's first few spell cards
>Having the final or extra boss have two or more themes (whether for different characters that are part of the same fight or for different spell cards of the same character) Already done. Eirin.
>Having different music play for the same sections if different characters are playing

Note: some of these options have appeared in earlier Touhou games, although not to the extent I suggest or since Imperishable Night. They have also appeared in fan games (especially CtC). However, I suggest them to fan game makers (or to relay to ZUN if he accepts fan suggestions).

So yeah. Most of them are done and others I think are negligible.

[theBATHEAD]

I don't think you understand what I'm talking about Remilia.

I'm not talking about the Phantasmagoria games. I was excluding decimal numbered games. By "stages with multiple paths" I meant stages where you could move to the left or right and face different danmaku. By split/merging paths I meant being able to choose which of two stages you could go to, or going to different stages depending on the things I listed, maybe going to the same stage after different previous stages. I think you confused this point with the previous. I'd actually forgotten how many different endings Touhou games had, but how different are they? And I'm not familiar with a Touhou game with different start/end(aside from IN) stages. "Different numbers of stages." I meant like after say stage 4, go to either one more stage or two (different) more stages. I haven't played Touhou, but in the gameplay I've seen, I haven't seen the player gather any upgraded weapons. I was thinking of multiple kinds of bombs, like one that goes straight ahead or one that goes in a cone. I... actually haven't seen a boss rush in any Touhou game. Shooters could include two player mode too.
I know you often fight a character from one stage as a later stage mid boss, but rarely the same character as a boss twice (the only example I can think of is Rika). I've read the Hisoutensoku scenarios and they look too much like the main game stories. I've also read the DDC story and you don't know any characters by aliases like "The Ninja Master," "The Masked Devil," "The Black Mage" until you defeat them.
Sorry, I have a clear definition of what a boss theme sounds like. Here are some examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ms3pt9lRKs (Contra 4)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izc3OpxcTQM (Zelda Oracles)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQeLmmI739w (Live A Live)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMorfbz46_Y (Yoshi's Island)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82-fSX-Umh4 (Revenge Of Shinobi)
In Touhou soundtracks, I only see one stage theme for each Extra Stage.

And I ADMIT that some of the things I list have already been used to a limited extent. Just future games could expand on them.

As a last note, I am used to a higher level of variation in Konami games, which Touhou games don't appear to have. So forgive me.

[Katrix]

In my opinion the day this would get implemented would be the day I would stop playing. It's good as it is already. We don't need overly complicated features in what is supposed to be a simply game. I would recommend you to play the games yourself before finding room for improvement.

[theBATHEAD]

I guess that's why ZUN is so open to fan games.

Or at least one reason.

[Cucoo5]

I'm not talking about the Phantasmagoria games. I was excluding decimal numbered games.

It's almost like your trying to exclude the games that have what your talking about and point out the ones that don't and then say they should...
And then say it should be for the fan games when there are already fan games that have most if not all of the things your proposing and then excluding them as well.

By "stages with multiple paths" I meant stages where you could move to the left or right and face different danmaku. By split/merging paths I meant being able to choose which of two stages you could go to, or going to different stages depending on the things I listed, maybe going to the same stage after different previous stages. I think you confused this point with the previous. I'd actually forgotten how many different endings Touhou games had, but how different are they? And I'm not familiar with a Touhou game with different start/end(aside from IN) stages. "Different numbers of stages." I meant like after say stage 4, go to either one more stage or two (different) more stages.

By default, Touhou is a linear arcade style shooter and/or fighter. Emphasis on the words linear and arcade.
Your playing for a score.
Now if I were to reference like Star Fox 64 for example, then yes, that mechanic would allow multi-paths and what not. But the score is tied to each stage.
Touhou's score system is simpler and based on the OVERALL run.
Fan games on the other hand exist with these mechanics.

I haven't played Touhou, but in the gameplay I've seen, I haven't seen the player gather any upgraded weapons. I was thinking of multiple kinds of bombs, like one that goes straight ahead or one that goes in a cone. I... actually haven't seen a boss rush in any Touhou game.

Shot select at the beginning. Choose one. That's it. You gather points to level up the shot for the run. That's it.
Example: TH6: EoSD has 2 shot types for Reimu. Homing amulet and ...uh... Persuasion Needle (I think it's not persuasion...but that's how I remember it.)
I'm not certain if the notation was present in EoSD, but this was Reimu A and Reimu B. Select One and then go through the stages.
Also each shot type came with a different bomb from the others. In some games each shot type came with special features that were triggered with different things (key combos or statuses).
Boss rush...uhm...can't speak for which game had it but I know there's spell practice...but that's not really that.

Shooters could include two player mode too.

Touhou 9: PoFV

I know you often fight a character from one stage as a later stage mid boss, but rarely the same character as a boss twice (the only example I can think of is Rika). I've read the Hisoutensoku scenarios and they look too much like the main game stories. I've also read the DDC story and you don't know any characters by aliases like "The Ninja Master," "The Masked Devil," "The Black Mage" until you defeat them.

Yuyoko came back in a different game as a...what was it...stage 1 boss? Though I think you mean in the same game...

Sorry, I have a clear definition of what a boss theme sounds like. Here are some examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ms3pt9lRKs (Contra 4)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izc3OpxcTQM (Zelda Oracles)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQeLmmI739w (Live A Live)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMorfbz46_Y (Yoshi's Island)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82-fSX-Umh4 (Revenge Of Shinobi)

*AHEM*

Now if we really must look at what I would use as a definition of an epic battle theme that isn't Touhou
(This theme could be classified as Fire Emblem's Second Final Boss theme.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hP4Tpk2Lo8


Part of me thinks your looking for one generic boss theme.
Also touhou has a specific sound font that ZUN uses.
The ZUNpets will be heard...

In Touhou soundtracks, I only see one stage theme for each Extra Stage.

Does the final area in Metroid Prime have two different themes? No.
Extra stage is that final FINAL area.

And I ADMIT that some of the things I list have already been used to a limited extent. Just future games could expand on them.

As a last note, I am used to a higher level of variation in Konami games, which Touhou games don't appear to have. So forgive me.

Variation...Touhou Official games...
please...
So far only the fighters have the greatest variation. Besides, I don't really play touhou since I just suck at shooters and not really that bad at fighters but the way Touhou fighters are...yeah... I prefer to stick with my Zelda, Fire Emblem, Golden Sun, etc. etc. in the long run.

EDIT: for what Katrix said, yes. Touhou Official games have a set formula that makes them lovable by the fans. The music included.
The fandom adds the variety.

[theBATHEAD]

I guess I stick to the fan games then. I like variety in games.

I want to close this thread. Do I have permission to do it, or does an admin have to close threads?

[Keychain]

Coming to a Touhou forum to debate about the quality of Touhou games won't get you anywhere. Thread closed.