@Lunasa
Law of Equivalent Exchange is largely for Alchemy.
TSU Remastered (CREATION THREAD)
06/11/2016, 12:18 AM #32
@Katrix
I freaking said so! Read my post properly before jumping to conclusions.
I freaking said so! Read my post properly before jumping to conclusions.
Smash through the blocks that bar your way; No time for fear, just let it all fall away; Nobody believes in me and you, Just look at the way they stare; So what if we live in a walled garden, As long as I've got you then I don't care!
My Switch Friend Code: SW-1503-3394-5328
My NNID: OfficialTRXD
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/lunapixu/
My Switch Friend Code: SW-1503-3394-5328
My NNID: OfficialTRXD
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/lunapixu/
06/11/2016, 12:22 AM #33
@Kat
Well, it's not truly a must, but how I see it, it effectively functions as a limiter to avoid infinite power and forces more creative thinking.
As an example, if I had a mage against an ice sprite, fire magic would definitely be effective since it would create heat and weaken the ice, but the passive cold that the sprit would put out would also sap warmth from the fire and eventually put it out so then the mage would have to constantly keep putting energy into the fire to keep it going. Or the mage could choose to use the already given cold to create ice and use them as projectiles.
Something like that. And yes, I recognize that different systems of magic do exist and I will appreciate how they function, even if they contain that ex nihilo aspect that I don't care for.
Well, it's not truly a must, but how I see it, it effectively functions as a limiter to avoid infinite power and forces more creative thinking.
As an example, if I had a mage against an ice sprite, fire magic would definitely be effective since it would create heat and weaken the ice, but the passive cold that the sprit would put out would also sap warmth from the fire and eventually put it out so then the mage would have to constantly keep putting energy into the fire to keep it going. Or the mage could choose to use the already given cold to create ice and use them as projectiles.
Something like that. And yes, I recognize that different systems of magic do exist and I will appreciate how they function, even if they contain that ex nihilo aspect that I don't care for.
06/11/2016, 12:45 AM #34
@Katrix.: No if you wanted to "prepare" an aether for someone you would literally have to find a way to create life in another dimension that you can't een go to. s for how the souls will work theirs going to be a limited number of points for everyone's soul. the basic elements might cost 1 point while the level 3 ones wold cost5. You col put one level 3 on there for five points or you could do five base level ones. In addition to that each element has fives levels to it. so if you were to put all five into fire magic then you would be a lot more skilled but you would likely have little to no talent with opposing types such as water. This also means that if you buy one level in a higher power or your soul that you'll still only be a level one with that aspect. the element in question might be more powerful but you'll still have very limited power over that element and you might be weaker than someone with a plus 5 to one of the simpler elements because of this.
Also equivalent exchange is a very important part of this magic type. The most important one being the cost of mana vs the power or complexity of a spell.The more elements you need to put into a spell, the more taxing it is on the magic user. This like Lunasa said prevents you from using infant power to cast a uber powerful spell over and ovr and over again without any negative repercussions. It also makes some types of magic impossible to use alone. For example the rank five magic, also known as meta elements are going to consist of things s like Destruction, creation, void, time, space and so on. It doesn't matter how skilled or powerful one person is, they will never be able to use the meta elements on their own..
Likewise this also holds true for studying. You're actions in the rp will directly effect what your characters are capable of. I'm not limiting it to the point of actually being a game rather than an rp that strictly follows stats. I want to give everyone as much free will as possible with their characters. this serves to give more of an idea of what each character SHOULD be capable of. I won't do anything if a character just oversteps their bounds a litle her and there. After all humans have been known to do things they didn't think possible in the heat of the moment when instinct takes over. It wouldn't' be ery realistic if they were restricted to strict stat based limits without the chance to go beyond them to some degree. That being said the system will help me cut down on ass pulls and gary/marry sues while giving players a better idea how much damage they should be dealing and taking from attacks.
Also equivalent exchange is a very important part of this magic type. The most important one being the cost of mana vs the power or complexity of a spell.The more elements you need to put into a spell, the more taxing it is on the magic user. This like Lunasa said prevents you from using infant power to cast a uber powerful spell over and ovr and over again without any negative repercussions. It also makes some types of magic impossible to use alone. For example the rank five magic, also known as meta elements are going to consist of things s like Destruction, creation, void, time, space and so on. It doesn't matter how skilled or powerful one person is, they will never be able to use the meta elements on their own..
Likewise this also holds true for studying. You're actions in the rp will directly effect what your characters are capable of. I'm not limiting it to the point of actually being a game rather than an rp that strictly follows stats. I want to give everyone as much free will as possible with their characters. this serves to give more of an idea of what each character SHOULD be capable of. I won't do anything if a character just oversteps their bounds a litle her and there. After all humans have been known to do things they didn't think possible in the heat of the moment when instinct takes over. It wouldn't' be ery realistic if they were restricted to strict stat based limits without the chance to go beyond them to some degree. That being said the system will help me cut down on ass pulls and gary/marry sues while giving players a better idea how much damage they should be dealing and taking from attacks.
06/11/2016, 01:05 AM #35
@Lunasa
It sounds neat until your really do try to put it into effect. For the fire magic, where does the energy come from? Fire takes a good chunk of energy. Here as I see it there are two alternatives. Either you use the already existing energy in the air to create something hot (you still need something to burn), or you just carry around a container of gasoline. Using the cold has some of the same problems. You say that you create projectiles, but where does the material for the projectiles come from? Where does the energy for the speed of the projectiles come from?
Now let's get more involved, you have your source of power, and you can create your desired attack from it. So, where does the energy for moving the energy around come from?
Continuing with that, let's say that you solve that problem too, what is to stop the magic caster from simply removing the source of energy from their enemy? Taken the example above, what is to stop the mage from simply using ALL the cold from the ice sprite for something else. At that point there won't be any cold left for the ice sprite, and such, it won't be of any harm anymore, or it might not even be there at all anymore as the is no cold there anymore.
As long as you have some pure from of energy as an enemy, dispersing the energy is going to be much more efficient that using some other magic that then in return disperses the enemy. Say that all actions costs 1 unit for example. Dispersal costs one unit as that is all you do. If you use fire however you are both creating fire(1 unit), that will then disperse the energy(1 unit).
If you want to protect against that too then you also need some restriction on how and where energy can be drained from.
A much simpler idea that while still having many of the same problems, is still much easier to use is Matter Equivalency where the amount of matter that goes in is the same amount that goes out. FMA for example goes with Matter Equivalency(the energy for the alchemy itself is supplied from elsewhere, as such it's not true Equivalent Exchange)
It sounds neat until your really do try to put it into effect. For the fire magic, where does the energy come from? Fire takes a good chunk of energy. Here as I see it there are two alternatives. Either you use the already existing energy in the air to create something hot (you still need something to burn), or you just carry around a container of gasoline. Using the cold has some of the same problems. You say that you create projectiles, but where does the material for the projectiles come from? Where does the energy for the speed of the projectiles come from?
Now let's get more involved, you have your source of power, and you can create your desired attack from it. So, where does the energy for moving the energy around come from?
Continuing with that, let's say that you solve that problem too, what is to stop the magic caster from simply removing the source of energy from their enemy? Taken the example above, what is to stop the mage from simply using ALL the cold from the ice sprite for something else. At that point there won't be any cold left for the ice sprite, and such, it won't be of any harm anymore, or it might not even be there at all anymore as the is no cold there anymore.
As long as you have some pure from of energy as an enemy, dispersing the energy is going to be much more efficient that using some other magic that then in return disperses the enemy. Say that all actions costs 1 unit for example. Dispersal costs one unit as that is all you do. If you use fire however you are both creating fire(1 unit), that will then disperse the energy(1 unit).
If you want to protect against that too then you also need some restriction on how and where energy can be drained from.
A much simpler idea that while still having many of the same problems, is still much easier to use is Matter Equivalency where the amount of matter that goes in is the same amount that goes out. FMA for example goes with Matter Equivalency(the energy for the alchemy itself is supplied from elsewhere, as such it's not true Equivalent Exchange)
| Born in the light.
Molded in the dark. Never Forget, Keep Fighting. |
 |
Don't Forget.
Always, somewhere,
someone is fighting for you.
As long as you remember her,
you are not alone.
|
06/11/2016, 02:04 AM #36
@Kat
While I do have answers to all those questions (which I will put in spoilers), I'll give up trying to defend my magic and admit that it's not fit for casual rping.
All cast magic comes from the caster's own personal pool of mana, which would regenerate normally or by drinking a potion. Fire can be created by either gathering the heat in the air until it combusts and supplementing mana for fuel or by using tools, the most common type would be a rune, fire essence that has been sealed into a stone, a crystal would be more efficient for a rune. Ice projectiles could be created by accumulating the frost that has accumulated on surfaces or by collecting the water vapor in the air until a sufficiently large piece of ice is formed. Using this same type of manipulation, the caster would be able to launch projectiles.
While tearing something apart would technically be possible, the opposing party's own magic would function as a sort of barrier against any attacking force, significantly reducing its effect. That's not to say that if a mage were strong enough, ripping something apart would be possible at the cost of an extremely large amount of mana and energy on their part. Barrier charms, of physical, magical, and mental varieties, also help against such.
Everything leaks magic around itself, creating an aura, the stronger the being is, the more oppressive it is to anything else within the aura. The ice sprite, or elemental, in question has an aura made of mainly frost magic, creating a mostly permanent bubble of cold around it, this aura would weaken as its mana pool drains. A sprite, however, is the third tier of fairy, which are basically embodiments of nature and, by extension, magic itself so it would have a near infinite pool of mana. Fairies are the absolute weakest beings in the magical world, the sprites are significantly stronger, but are still only slightly above the strength of a novice mage.
No, I did not pull this out of my ass, I have an actual system worked out.
While I do have answers to all those questions (which I will put in spoilers), I'll give up trying to defend my magic and admit that it's not fit for casual rping.
Spoiler
All cast magic comes from the caster's own personal pool of mana, which would regenerate normally or by drinking a potion. Fire can be created by either gathering the heat in the air until it combusts and supplementing mana for fuel or by using tools, the most common type would be a rune, fire essence that has been sealed into a stone, a crystal would be more efficient for a rune. Ice projectiles could be created by accumulating the frost that has accumulated on surfaces or by collecting the water vapor in the air until a sufficiently large piece of ice is formed. Using this same type of manipulation, the caster would be able to launch projectiles.
While tearing something apart would technically be possible, the opposing party's own magic would function as a sort of barrier against any attacking force, significantly reducing its effect. That's not to say that if a mage were strong enough, ripping something apart would be possible at the cost of an extremely large amount of mana and energy on their part. Barrier charms, of physical, magical, and mental varieties, also help against such.
Everything leaks magic around itself, creating an aura, the stronger the being is, the more oppressive it is to anything else within the aura. The ice sprite, or elemental, in question has an aura made of mainly frost magic, creating a mostly permanent bubble of cold around it, this aura would weaken as its mana pool drains. A sprite, however, is the third tier of fairy, which are basically embodiments of nature and, by extension, magic itself so it would have a near infinite pool of mana. Fairies are the absolute weakest beings in the magical world, the sprites are significantly stronger, but are still only slightly above the strength of a novice mage.
No, I did not pull this out of my ass, I have an actual system worked out.
06/11/2016, 06:35 AM #37
Im not gonna jump TOOOO far into this, but I would like to point out one thing:
"Ice projectiles could be created by accumulating the frost that has accumulated on surfaces or by collecting the water vapor in the air until a sufficiently large piece of ice is formed"
The ambient water vapor in the air is like...nothing. Just breathe deep and see. Humans don't breathe water, so if there was a sufficient amount, we'd be uncomfortable(Similarly try this on the coast when its windy and you got that sea spray, or when there's a large amount of steam in your face from boiling water for noodles or eggs). Even making TINY TINY TINY things into ice not only requires an insane BTU/energy transfer, but there's simply not enough water in the air to form a decent projectile.
THAT is where the magic comes in, I would say. Where scienece and fact simply prove its not possible. For the ice example above, You got all sorts of reactions from heat transfer, water being ripped right out of the air (Thus drying out a HUGE area or being straight-up entropic and making a vacuum or causing fission of atoms) and probably some science stuff even I dont know. Hell, I only got ONE quarter of Electrical and refrigeration in collage. Who knows what I could do to screw over air/fire magic theory with a full year?
Abandon the solid idea of extreme equivalent exchange. That is, If you make fire, there has to be cold to make it, and Matter exchange like Kat said above. Instead focus on the person's energy, wherever it may come from, being the thing that is exchanged. Sure, you might need more things in the real world to exchange in order to make some stronger magic or more solid magic, But for smaller things the person's personal energy could be the majority if not all of the exchanged ...uh...exchangables?
Addendum: While its nice to have a well thought out system for magic (Cuz i truly hate lack of reason for things happening!) its also important to keep the magic "magical", otherwise what's the point? The systems we make for magic in our worlds should CONSTANTLY be reviewed, fine-tuned and checked. We aren't God, so why would we think we can make a perfect or even functional system at all? the longer we spend making these systems work, and learning about the parts in them, the more functional they become...but they will NEVER truly work, There will always be something wrong that collapses the system.
Last edited by Alayosho; 06/11/2016, 06:45 AM. "Ice projectiles could be created by accumulating the frost that has accumulated on surfaces or by collecting the water vapor in the air until a sufficiently large piece of ice is formed"
The ambient water vapor in the air is like...nothing. Just breathe deep and see. Humans don't breathe water, so if there was a sufficient amount, we'd be uncomfortable(Similarly try this on the coast when its windy and you got that sea spray, or when there's a large amount of steam in your face from boiling water for noodles or eggs). Even making TINY TINY TINY things into ice not only requires an insane BTU/energy transfer, but there's simply not enough water in the air to form a decent projectile.
THAT is where the magic comes in, I would say. Where scienece and fact simply prove its not possible. For the ice example above, You got all sorts of reactions from heat transfer, water being ripped right out of the air (Thus drying out a HUGE area or being straight-up entropic and making a vacuum or causing fission of atoms) and probably some science stuff even I dont know. Hell, I only got ONE quarter of Electrical and refrigeration in collage. Who knows what I could do to screw over air/fire magic theory with a full year?
Abandon the solid idea of extreme equivalent exchange. That is, If you make fire, there has to be cold to make it, and Matter exchange like Kat said above. Instead focus on the person's energy, wherever it may come from, being the thing that is exchanged. Sure, you might need more things in the real world to exchange in order to make some stronger magic or more solid magic, But for smaller things the person's personal energy could be the majority if not all of the exchanged ...uh...exchangables?
Addendum: While its nice to have a well thought out system for magic (Cuz i truly hate lack of reason for things happening!) its also important to keep the magic "magical", otherwise what's the point? The systems we make for magic in our worlds should CONSTANTLY be reviewed, fine-tuned and checked. We aren't God, so why would we think we can make a perfect or even functional system at all? the longer we spend making these systems work, and learning about the parts in them, the more functional they become...but they will NEVER truly work, There will always be something wrong that collapses the system.
I gazed up at the sable-haired maiden with eyes so full of warmth it appeared she was crying silently. My trecherous mouth opened, "Why do you look so troubled, Princess?"
Slowly, she moved her eyes from the moon to me. She studied my imperfections before her for what seemed to be a blissful eternity before gracing me with her voice, "I've slain this land's only prince. What use, now, is a princess?"
As the maiden left my presence, so too did my heart.
Slowly, she moved her eyes from the moon to me. She studied my imperfections before her for what seemed to be a blissful eternity before gracing me with her voice, "I've slain this land's only prince. What use, now, is a princess?"
As the maiden left my presence, so too did my heart.
06/11/2016, 08:14 AM #38
Okay I get it, I GET IT
I lost, my system is flawed, it's broken, it's illogical. I admit defeat, I won't say anything else.
Please just stop already
I lost, my system is flawed, it's broken, it's illogical. I admit defeat, I won't say anything else.
Please just stop already
06/11/2016, 09:15 AM #39
I would like to draw attention to the addendum again. Its meant meant to make you feel bad(NOT meant to make you feel bad**), but show that no one is perfect in this regard. Or rather, All systems are inherently perfect, and when we begin to think too hard about them is when we create the problems for ourselves.
Please, by all means continue your system and make it wonderful. Ignore me and Kat, cuz we got some EXTREMELY in-depth systems (I got a bloody wikia page cuz I cant just keep it in my head anymore) and we like to nit-pick things. Shame Kat and Alayo!! Shame!!
Edit: holy sh** dyslexia... Edited part in bold, then corrected right after
Last edited by Alayosho; 06/11/2016, 11:17 AM. Please, by all means continue your system and make it wonderful. Ignore me and Kat, cuz we got some EXTREMELY in-depth systems (I got a bloody wikia page cuz I cant just keep it in my head anymore) and we like to nit-pick things. Shame Kat and Alayo!! Shame!!
Edit: holy sh** dyslexia... Edited part in bold, then corrected right after
I gazed up at the sable-haired maiden with eyes so full of warmth it appeared she was crying silently. My trecherous mouth opened, "Why do you look so troubled, Princess?"
Slowly, she moved her eyes from the moon to me. She studied my imperfections before her for what seemed to be a blissful eternity before gracing me with her voice, "I've slain this land's only prince. What use, now, is a princess?"
As the maiden left my presence, so too did my heart.
Slowly, she moved her eyes from the moon to me. She studied my imperfections before her for what seemed to be a blissful eternity before gracing me with her voice, "I've slain this land's only prince. What use, now, is a princess?"
As the maiden left my presence, so too did my heart.
06/11/2016, 09:55 AM #40
Alright a few things i want to get out of the way.
1: In FMA the energy they use is generated from the ground and thus created by the world. Using that energy to transmute is no different than using the earth to make a hand or something. Both the earth used and the energy used come from the earth so honestly it's the same thing. So long as the earth supplies the energy required to use the transmutations it can still be considered equivalent exchange. The Father character in FMA Brotherhood actually used a method to block alchemists from using that energy. As a result they couldn't use their alchemy.
2: Since magic or mana in this world comes from an alternate plane of existence and you have to use the appropriate amount of energy in order to use the more complex elements in spells this every well can be considered equivalent exchange as well. After all Mana to us in this world is simply matter in the Aether. And just as we feed off the mana from the Aether, the Aether also takes energy from us as well. So yes this rp follows equivilant exchane but it's still posible to make something from energy since it's coming from the world linked to our own.
3: The idea of perfection in anything, be it magic or science or whatever you like is ridicules. As humans, it's impossible for us to ever become perfect, creat something that is perfect or even to understand what a truly perfect being would be like. While I won't claim the magic created for this rp to be perfect, I well say i put a lot of thought into making it so it could both be studied within the rp while still being simple enough that a casual role player could enjoy it. That being said, while the magic type is not, nor will it ever be perfect, I hop everyone is content with what I've come up with.
1: In FMA the energy they use is generated from the ground and thus created by the world. Using that energy to transmute is no different than using the earth to make a hand or something. Both the earth used and the energy used come from the earth so honestly it's the same thing. So long as the earth supplies the energy required to use the transmutations it can still be considered equivalent exchange. The Father character in FMA Brotherhood actually used a method to block alchemists from using that energy. As a result they couldn't use their alchemy.
2: Since magic or mana in this world comes from an alternate plane of existence and you have to use the appropriate amount of energy in order to use the more complex elements in spells this every well can be considered equivalent exchange as well. After all Mana to us in this world is simply matter in the Aether. And just as we feed off the mana from the Aether, the Aether also takes energy from us as well. So yes this rp follows equivilant exchane but it's still posible to make something from energy since it's coming from the world linked to our own.
3: The idea of perfection in anything, be it magic or science or whatever you like is ridicules. As humans, it's impossible for us to ever become perfect, creat something that is perfect or even to understand what a truly perfect being would be like. While I won't claim the magic created for this rp to be perfect, I well say i put a lot of thought into making it so it could both be studied within the rp while still being simple enough that a casual role player could enjoy it. That being said, while the magic type is not, nor will it ever be perfect, I hop everyone is content with what I've come up with.